by Carolee Sherwood
John Cougar Mellencamp wasn’t talking about poetry when he released the song “Hurt So Good” on his American Fool album (1982), but I sometimes think of good poetry that way. “It hurts so good.”
I didn’t know from memory the year of the album (which also features a little diddy about Jack and Diane). I had to look it up, but it was 1982. I was 10. How come, then, singing along with the radio, did I feel much older? Like a woman? Like I actually knew “sometimes love don’t feel like it should”?
Then I realized that “Hurt So Good” was part of a movie, Footloose, the soundtrack for which was the first cassette I ever purchased. It was 1984. I was 12. By then, of course, I definitely knew about love and heartache and relationships.
It would take me much longer to understand poetry, and although I typically only think about finished poems being raw, beautiful and true enough to “hurt so good,” the current Read Write Poll has me thinking along those lines regarding the process of peer critique and revision, as well.
The poll asks, “How are you at receiving critique?”
I was one who answered, “I welcome brutal honesty no matter what.”
I hear Mellencamp in my head: “Sink your teeth right through my bones, baby. Let’s see what we can do.” And I mean it.
Welcoming brutal honesty doesn’t mean critique doesn’t sting; it can. Welcoming brutal honesty doesn’t mean I allow comments to hijack my poems; I don’t. It just means I want to hear whatever a reader has to say. If it hurts, I have to ask myself why. Is it my ego? If so, I set ego aside for the good of the poem.
Sometimes, critique reflects my own sense of a poem’s weak spots. In those instances, I almost always go back and rework those areas. But sometimes, critique comes out of left field. When that happens, I am extremely careful. I don’t want to disregard commentary that may be useful but I also don’t want to allow it to infiltrate my own sense of the poem.
I listen to everything. I consider everything. I try to set aside personal sensitivities. I get over it quickly if it does hurt. As part of my revision process, critique helps me look at my poems more thoughtfully and that’s always a good thing.
How about you? Let’s use the comments section to talk about the roll of peer critique in your revision process and how old you were in 1982. (Seriously.) Share some of your experiences on both sides peer critique: how it works or doesn’t work for you, how you feel about it, how you offer it to others.
You could even tell us about some awkward peer critique situations, because we all know it can be sticky. Don’t give us names, but tell us about scenes you’ve witnessed when others have had trouble accepting peer critique and talk about times when it’s been hard for you, as well. Where did it ultimately lead in the future of the piece being critiqued? How has it influenced your interest in peer critique moving forward?
Here’s how the poll dance works: We post a poll and let it ride for a week and a half, and then I’ll talk a little bit about the topic and the results. The poll will stand for a few days after that to allow additional participation. The rotation gives each poll two weeks in the white-hot spotlight.
In 1982, I was nonexistent.
I came 2 years later though.
This poll took a lot of pondering for me. I was vacillating between:
“I don’t like critique but know it’s necessary/helpful.”
and
“I really struggle to incorporate revisions based on critique.”
I had to review all of my actions and frustrations in my past works and dealings with my peers as well as creative writing instructors and found that I’m much closer to the first response. Brutal honesty is difficult to take in, but I don’t think I can handle it ALL the time, so that made me choose my response as such in that I don’t like critique necessarily ALL time especially brutally honest critiques, but I do know that those critiques are helpful and necessary to revise my work. In the end though, sometimes we are our own worst critics and despite what anyone says, sometimes a poem can be revised only so much before it turns out to be completely different than with what we started with. I rather save the integrity of a poem I’ve written than have it revised again and again per peers’ critiques and recommendations. Sometimes, we know our poems best. I have a couple of experiences like that. No matter how I tried to revise my poem based on the critiques I was given, I did NOT like the way those poems turned out. In the end, I took the recommendations/critiques that were helpful in what I was looking for and saved those poems from destruction. Lesson learned: Sometimes you just have to pick and choose among critiques. Kind of like shopping around for the best family doctor or even dentist (well, that’s another story)! You can’t just satisfy everyone, but acknowledge that those critiques were heard and considered. After all, I’m sure when a poet writes something, it’s his/her creation, and I think creations are the fruits of something we cultivate and nurture.
In terms of my critiquing style, I’m fair, respectful, and polite. I point out all (or most) positive aspects of the poet’s work and highlight those that I think that needs more work and give them plenty of options/methods/ideas to explore. I’m always happy with the latter because it makes me smile whenever a poet has a “Eureka!” moment when I happen to suggest a certain method or idea they can use. I’m more of a nurturing type of critic, because I believe that critiques and feedback are both a collaboration and exploration of minds on approaches to poetry, and I’m willing to work with a poet if the poet is willing to work with me. Also, reading various styles and forms of poetry helps strengthen one’s own critiquing style and knowledge of the art of criticism.
Whew! What a blurb I just wrote. Now I am exhausted! Nighty night!
My vote was “I enjoy the feedback but it’s difficult to hear criticism.” I’m only an occasional and extremely amateur writer, so I most appreciate positive (but always honest!) comments — exactly the kind of feedback that the readwritepoem community gives
.
If I ever did look for actual formal critiques, I know I’d prefer A~Lotus’ nurturing approach. Give me ideas to consider, suggestions to explore. I have enough humility already about the quality of my work, so I don’t need any brutal critiques LOL.
1982? I’d been kissed, but not deeply. . .
Yes, til it hurts. But I have been lucky enough to find a group of poets whom I respect and who all have their own voice and preferences. We’ve been together for years now. . . When they disagree it does take a bit of the sting.
I’ve learned that I am not the best judge of my own work. By that I mean I have tossed aside poems only to find that other people have liked them most. It is difficult to get the poem out of my head even after it is on the page – to get critical distance to see what I’ve forgotten to say or which dead horse I’ve been whipping. That is why I need my critique group.
Both as a peer and a teacher, I am honest about what I perceive as weaknesses, but am careful to point out what does work for me and why. I am careful all around because I know that I am not always right. And I NEVER rewrite for another poet. Because I hate it when someone does that to my work. The poem becomes theirs. I feel like a fraud accepting rewrites. I prefer suggestions that seem more like multiple choice
I have had people come to me and ask me for help only to turn around and call me stupid for not understanding their poems. I think it is very important for poets to know when they want critical support and when they need exclusively positive support.
Some people write for the joy alone and that is wonderful. If that is the kind of poet you are, then I think that kind of writing practice should be embraced wholeheartedly. Looking for outside confirmation of what gives you joy is not a good idea. All art is subjective.
I think I’m too twisted a person for joy alone. Poetry isn’t a purely emotional outlet for me. It’s a craft, a bit of ornamental woodwork. Learning a craft means being “corrected” now and then. Guided in another direction.
Still, taking criticism isn’t easy. Writing poetry for the joy AND pain of it. . . well, it *is* painful sometimes (like when you find yourself short a foot!).
39! Enough said. I have never had any problem with criticism, I’ve been married forever plus I have two very intelligent daughters. Critiquing is a commodity in our household. However there are different ways of giving criticism. Most persons do not know how to offer it constructively rather than destructively nor do they know the difference. The problem with a critique is that it can become a habit, tiresome, and vindictive, especially if the person been critiqued has previously given a critique to the criticizer.
I picked this paragraph out of paper on Critiquing Poetry. I believe it gets to the heart of how to approach any opinionated observations on a persons poetic expressions.
“Critiquing is not about analyzing poetry, it is about helping to better a poet. However, it is important to understand the elements of poetry. So before you begin, make sure you know all the tidbits and insights on poetry.”
When I was at the university I had a class on Oral Interpretation. We verbally read a story or poem and put a new “Oral Interpretation” to the intent of the author. At finish the class was asked to ‘critique’ our reading as we stood upfront, alone. Some of the comments to persons were brutal and the professor had to tone it down. An example of youthful lack of understanding and experience in life. That is the danger in critiquing based on an experiential life base. I do not feel that I have the ability to help someone become a better poet since that is what I strive for with every line I write.
At Read Write Poem we have a pretty fluid little community of interested persons. Although not emotionally or socially attached to anyone I would not want to render these diaphanous relations violated. A critique of someones work can do that even though no intent to harm was meant.
I currently have a set of poems with an editor. I have enjoyed the nuances that this person has pointed out to me upon which I can improve my work. It is refreshing and I know that their critique is given to help me become a better writer.
You are welcome to critique my work daily, I will take no offense. I welcome it. However, I would not offer it to others. If I cannot say anything good I choose to say nothing.
A-Lotus, so many important considerations in your comment! I felt like this was most important:
“sometimes a poem can be revised only so much before it turns out to be completely different than with what we started with. I rather save the integrity of a poem I’ve written than have it revised again and again”
Even without peer critique, I am sometimes guilty of convincing a poem to stop being itself. So having a sense of what the poem is BEFORE applying internal or external critique is of utmost importance!
throws his words, you bring two important elements to this discussion: knowing “why” you’re writing poetry to begin with (brutal critique may serve no one) and having humility. humility is difficult in life period. add to life the challenge of any kind of self expression? humility becomes an extreme sport!
renkat:
oh, boy, i love! this:
“I think I’m too twisted a person for joy alone.”
I may be quoting that for years to come.
and your explanation on why you need a critique group–”critical distance to see what I’ve forgotten to say or which dead horse I’ve been whipping”–is right on. sometimes it is hard to keep track of what we’ve said before or be aware that we’re saying the same thing five different ways or that we’ve completely left something out that our readers need.
great insights!
Donald,
I heard someone on a panel once say that offering peer critique is most helpful in making us better editors of our own work. i think that’s true. and if people kept that in mind when they offered critique, i think they’d be less vindictive and more focused on craft.
i’ve been lucky. with few exceptions, my peer critique experiences have been rewarding.
I know I need critique.
I need it in order to revise successfully (that was my actual poll answer).
I think I mentioned before that English is a second language for me, and it is a new language as well.
I do have problems with the rhythm of the language sometimes, sometimes with grammar, but most often it is the meaning of words that I have problems with.
There is this fine distinction between two very similar words that can make a big difference when it comes to poetry. An example: I am still pondering in a poem I am trying to revise over “I see a shadow cover your eyes” or “I see a shadow hinder your eye”…a friend of mine that used to review and comment my on my poems had big issues with the second due to the fact that hinder is mostly used for a very concrete action while eye and shadow are abstract images.
Poetry has been an emotional outlet for me for years. But as renkat said, poetry is a craft. And if one writes poetry, she has to strive to better herself. It is called respect. Respect for the craft, respect for poets. And the more I learn about this craft, the more I understand what the ancient Greeks understood by art (techné) – a craft you learn to perfect, you learn to master.
And who could be my best teachers and critiques, but my peers?
This is why I am so happy to find read write poem, I am now trying too get to know everybody better and hope to find an workshop where I can fit in and discuss what I write in more detail.
Do I take critique easy? Not really. I had put very personal feelings, in some of my poems – emotions that are very precious to me. But I am trying to accept in a gracious manner. This is why I avoided “blunt honesty”- if I am to be delicate with my critiques I do request the same from them. Or, at least try.
This was a fabulous discussion. It’s really neat to see the different approaches to criticism in general. Thanks for sharing everyone!
I was 13 in 1982 and I remember that song was everywhere. You could not escape its reach. As far as critique goes, I never shared my work with anyone until this year. My wife is an extremely honest critic so I’m lucky in that respect. I make her read everything before anyone else sees it. She doesn’t seem to mind this. So far.
I welcome honest critique. It’s invaluable.
I was 21 in 1982, and didn’t like John Cougar Mellencamp. I actually like him better now that I’m older! I was into Gang of Four, U2, the Clash, David Bowie, The Talking Heads, and all the bands my friends were in, like Love Tractor, the Side Effects, Pylon, and REM. Although I know that REM opened for JCM back then. I had a steady boyfriend who was in two bands, and well, we kissed a lot.
As far as critique goes, I chose the wimpy one, that I enjoy the feedback, but it’s difficult to hear. But really, that’s not entirely true. It all depends on whether or not I’ve asked for critique. If it’s something raw, fresh out of my brain, I don’t want critique. If it’s on my blog, I don’t want critique. I’d like to know if someone liked a line, or something about it, but I’d rather hear the constructive criticism in a private setting.
In a private setting I like to hear a balanced approach. What are the poem’s merits? How could it be improved? But if someone wants to tear it apart, I’d rather not listen. I mean, if I wrote it, I must think it’s somewhat good, otherwise I wouldn’t share it. So brutal honesty doesn’t always work for me. In my own offerings of critique, I am sensitive to others, and I’d like them to be that way with me. Yes, I’m a wimp. I wear my heart on my sleeve, I know.
Great article Carolee, and an excellent dance. i mean poll!